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The former Christian singer previously said she wasn't interested in being an advocate for LGBT issues, but a forthcoming book tackles the topic head on. - Image courtesy of Dani Palmer (http://bit.ly/1pcZx8W)

The former Christian singer previously said she wasn’t interested in being an advocate for LGBT issues, but a forthcoming book tackles the topic head on. – Image courtesy of Dani Palmer (http://bit.ly/1pcZx8W)

Four years ago, when musician Jennifer Knapp declared to the world that she was in a lesbian relationship, conservative Christians around the country released a collective gasp. They had traveled from far and wide to hear her sing and purchased more than one million of Knapp’s albums. But the Grammy-nominated musician’s revelation tested their loyalty.

At the time, Knapp had already been on a seven-year professional hiatus and declared she was not interested in being a poster girl for the gay Christian community. Neither did she feel equipped.

I’m in no way capable of leading a charge for some kind of activist movement,” Knapp bluntly told “Christianity Today” in 2010, adding, “I’m not capable of getting into the theological argument as to whether or not we should or shouldn’t allow homosexuals within our church.”

But her sense of readiness has apparently changed. Simon and Schuster is preparing to release a book by Knapp in October titled, “Facing the Music: Discovering Real Life, Real Love, and Real Faith.”

According to the publisher’s website, Knapp is “now an advocate for LGBT issues in the church” whose memoir tells the story “of her troubled childhood, the love of music that pulled her through, her dramatic conversion to Christianity, her rise to stardom, her abrupt departure from Christian Contemporary Music, her years of trying to come to terms with her sexual orientation, and her return to music.”

The description continues: “She also talks about the importance of her faith, and despite the many who claim she can no longer call herself a believer, she maintains that she is both gay and a Christian….Jennifer has witnessed heartbreaking struggles as churches wrestle with issues of homosexuality and faith.”

Simon and Schuster is releasing the book through Howard Books, its Christian imprint, which is a member of the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association. Earlier this year, there was controversy within the ECPA about another member, Waterbrook Multnomah, whose sister imprint, Convergent Books, published “God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same Sex Relationships” by Matthew Vines. Some members felt that the book strayed from evangelical orthodoxy by endorsing homosexual behavior.

As a result of the brouhaha, the National Religious Broadcasters forced Walterbook Multnomah to resign its membership in the organization. NRB’s president and CEO Jerry Johnson wrote in a letter to board members: “This issue comes down to NRB members producing unbiblical material, regardless of the label under which they do it.”

According to Jennifer Smith, publicity director for Howard Books, Knapp is expected to deliver the manuscript to her editor next week.

“We know it’s her story and obviously the position she’s found herself in as a recognizable Christian artist coming out as gay. She shares about how she has come to terms with herself and her own sexuality and is able to speak on the topic and say, ‘Look, God loves me through this.'”

While Smith did not say whether Howard expects a similar controversy to the one Waterbrook Multnomah faced due to Vines’ book, she sent the following official statement from Howard Books to Religion News Service to elaborate on their expectations:

While we understand there will be some people that don’t necessarily agree with this book, there are others who want to have this conversation. This is simply a vehicle for us to encourage Christians to open their hearts and minds to having the discussion openly. At the end of the day, this book is an opportunity for Jennifer to tell her story and we want to be part of that conversation.”

Given the momentum of this issue among American Christians, one can only expect more books like Vines’ and Knapp’s will be coming. The question is now how organizations such as NRB and the ECPA will respond. Phone calls to National Religion Broadcasters for comment were not immediately returned.

Upon coming out of the closet, some of Knapp’s fans expressed outrage and disappointment while others rallied behind her. One month after Knapp’s interview in “Christianity Today” about coming out, her album “Letting Go” debuted at No. 73 on the “Billboard 200 Chart.” When “Facing the Music” hits bookstores in October, sales numbers will reveal if her fans have stuck around. But they may also be a bellwether of where the Christian community at large is on the matter of homosexuality and the church.

115 Comments

  1. “I’m not capable of getting into the theological argument as to whether or not we should or shouldn’t allow homosexuals within our church.” Obviously. The church is not just made up of people who attend a building. It is the spiritual body of Christ where we are united to him (literally) by faith; all by God’s doing. To state whether or not we allow “homosexuals within our church” is not something we do. It is God who adds to his church. We invite people to repent and believe the gospel of Christ, but we don’t have the power to do anything other than that. Practicing Homosexuals, like murderers, and all other sinners engaged in lawlessness are not in the church. Theology sure helps to communicate the truth. Christians need to be giving an answer instead of responding only. Know what the truth is.

      • Without religion he would just be a foaming at the mouth bigot. Pretending his animus against gays is God’s will he can get a little bit of social sanction that reality does not permit.

        • Wisecarver is actually speaking/acting according to his stated worldview (Judeo-Christian), whereas Mrs. Knapp is not. Though his portrayal of it is harsh, he is entitled to it…even if your worldview (“reality”) labels it as bigotry.
          Knapp, et al, promote a postmodern/existential version of the historical Judeo-Christian view that seeks to rewrite thousands of years of orthodox views. Which I’m fine with – because she’s entitled to it – as long as we call it what it is. Because when we don’t call it what it is, we are operating under false pretenses.
          Kind of like if one person feigns acceptance of all worldviews, but then criticizes another when they simply walk in accordance with it. Whether or not Wisecarver’s worldview is small-minded and full of bigotry, he is to be commended for adhering to it. It’s more courageous than “coming out” nowadays…in an American society where the chief sin seems to be disagreeing with someone on basis of personal belief. I have not heard one criticism from personal friends (as it should be) with the coming out of Michael Sam, Jason Collins, etc,…but have heard unceasing criticisms against Christians – who hold to the historical interpretations of their Holy Book – who say they disagree with the act. Once again, let’s simply call it what it is.
          It doesn’t add to the discovery of truth, or fruitful conversation, to operate under the false pretense of tolerance, or reality, when the system is self-refuting. Apply it to everyone, or change the name of your worldview to “ME”.

          • @JOHN,

            “Apply it to everyone, or change the name of your worldview to “ME”
            That is too rich.

            So..don’t be selfish?

            Instead, humbly get behind Allmighty God’s racist, homophobic agenda – because it was designed for YOU.
            Wow.

          • Of course its bigotry. But chalking it up to simply a religious view is simply whitewashing. Its simply looking for excuses to treat others badly with a modicum of social acceptance.

            “Knapp, et al, promote a postmodern/existential version of the historical Judeo-Christian view that seeks to rewrite thousands of years of orthodox views. ”

            Because the idea of loving thy neighbor and treating other people with basic dignity is entirely outside the notions of Christianity. At least you are honest enough to admit to such things. Glad to know there is really no socially redeeming value to Christianity. There is no actual Christ in Christianity.

            “Kind of like if one person feigns acceptance of all worldviews”

            Who does that? Christians? LOL. Your right to acceptance ends where it causes harm to others. I don’t have to respect your customs, religious beliefs or traditions as an excuse to attack others.

            “Whether or not Wisecarver’s worldview is small-minded and full of bigotry, he is to be commended for adhering to it. ”

            In the same vein an Al Queda suicide bomber is to be commended for being willing to put his life on the line for his religious beliefs. :)
            Without the religious trappings, he would not have the benefit of people jumping in to defend his views so easily. Its not a courageous act to join a lynch mob.

            “…but have heard unceasing criticisms against Christians – who hold to the historical interpretations of their Holy Book – who say they disagree with the act.”

            Because Christians refuse to keep it to themselves. They insist on trying to give their nonsense the color of law. I can do without constantly having to tell self-righteous theocrats that their religious sectarian discriminatory agenda has no place in a free society. But that is the problem the Christians create for the rest of us here. If you don’t want to make your views a public concern, stop making them a public concern.

          • Wrong. Without God (and that is obviously impossible), then non would care about anyone. We all being made in the image of God, exercise love, even though in our fallen condition (we are not perfect) can and do express it ways that are commendable. “Religion” tells us what love is and who ultimatly what it’s object is. We love because God made us like himself. Hence, like intellect, it must come from one that has it in himself since the beginning. We are receiptants of and have the ability to think, love, create, care, and at times judge. All because we are made in God’s image. He allows us to share those with him in some measure. Religion doesn’t tell me that; God does in my conscience, in creation itself, and most perfectly in Christ. He loved us to the end. Died for sinners like us. You judge right? You just did. Did religion tell cause you to think that way? I care for Knapp because she was made in God’s image. Regardless of her practices. Wow. And not even an ad hominem in that entire argument.

          • Wisecarver where is your care for fellow people?

            All I see from you are excuses to treat them like crap. Your version of God makes it socially acceptable in your eyes. If you are an example of Christian love, keep it. Its toxic nonsense.

            If religion had to tell you what love is, you never knew the meaning of the word. Given your willingness to extol hatred, that much has been obvious. All are made in God’s image, except for those you deem to treat as less than people, because God tells you so. You care enough for Knapp to consider her on the same lines as a murderer. Some loving and caring! The kind we can all do without.

            There is nothing more mendacious and ridiculous than a Christian talking about “love the sinner, hate the sin”. Its a load of crap to cover up their real thought, “Hate others and claim its God’s will”.

          • @WISECARVER,

            “Without God (and that is obviously impossible), then no one would care about anyone.”

            How would you know what is impossible without God if it is impossible to be without God?

            Religious people say the strangest things.

      • I’ve met people who think John 3:16 is harsh. Go figure.

        These days, people don’t seem to want what Christ is offering.

        All they seem to want is a free pass for their favorite sins.

      • It’s biblical truth. GOD’s words, not religious words. Only true believers love Jesus and His Word. God’s Word is unchanging, and very clear. Homosexuality IS sin. Period. She is leading many astray. There is no hatred toward Jennifer, but toward the sin she promotes.

        Most people think God’s Word is harsh, and it’s “foolishness to those who are perishing” (not my words, God’s). I was a “Christian” for years, but was immature in my faith and didn’t really study to show myself approved. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, and through humble submission to Jesus and His Word, I’ve been set free from sins that I used to be entangled in. “Church” doesn’t set us free. Religion doesn’t set us free. Jesus sets us free, Bringing us into HIS BODY, the Church; and we are transformed by the renewing of our minds. What renews our minds? God’s Word. I can tell you I often “felt” like doing what is clearly contradictory to God’s Word, or even “thought” my ideas were fine. Once my thoughts and feelings were brought into the open and compared with God’s word, I had to repent of my clear disobedience. But God is NOT cruel, rather He truly is the most loving “person” I’ve ever known. By His grace and love we can see both how wretched we are, and how He desires and is capable of setting us free. It’s for freedom that Christ suffered! We need Him. He’s awesome!

        I pray for Jennifer to repent and see that homosexuality is a clear violation of Gods word, and a sin against her own body. I don’t expect non-believers to understand this, and I have compassion. Sin is so deceptive. Believers cannot support her or agree with her, as she claims to be a believer. Love her, and pray for her.

    • @WISECARVER,

      Jesus Himself couldn’t have said it better.
      Wait, he did:
      “Execute Them” – (Luke 19:27)

      Religion is delusional nonsense. The Emperor truly has no clothes.

      • @Atheist Max
        The passage that you refer to is a parable. Though Jesus is telling the story – so yes the words came out of his mouth – it’s a stated and understood parable/story (v. 11). Historical Christian hermeneutics (science of interpretation) say that a parable is meant to make one point, unless stated clearly or interpreted later by Jesus himself. This is standard reading of the Bible. The long-held interpretation of this parable is to use the talents you’ve been given on earth. The point isn’t to dwell on what the fictional master in the story does to his servants who undermine his authority. Also in the original language (Greek), the term is harsher than ‘execute.’ A better rendering would be ‘slaughter.’
        I mention this because if someone would read your comment with ignorance of the context of the story, they would misrepresent what Jesus said. I don’t think it’s truthful to do this. There are plenty of other unbelievable stories in the Bible to pick on that don’t need to be misrepresented. Like splitting a sea in half and walking through it. Or being swallowed by a huge fish and kept alive for 3 days miraculously. Or walking on water. Or turning a few loaves of bread into enough to feed thousands. Stories that require faith in the subject of them.
        I just want the truth to be exposed, not a twisting of what is a clear teaching.
        Once again, I’m not sure what’s more “delusional nonsense”…believing that the laws of nature could be trumped by some force greater than humanity, or having faith in a religion of science/rationalism/whatever but denying that you trust in it as a worldview. The trappings may look different (i.e. no churches, mosques), but there is still an object you place your faith in…whether you call it science, reality, or self. I believe that is actually the point of the story of the Emperor without clothes. He kept denying what the reality of the situation was.

        • @JOHN,

          “..bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and EXECUTE THEM in front of me…” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

          Let’s be clear:

          1. The Bible does not come with instructions. I claims to BE the instructions.

          2. The Bible does not come with interpreters. It claims to be IN NO NEED of interpretation. “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:20)

          3. The Nobleman in the Parable of the Minas (Luke 19) is JESUS. For no other reason than it is Jesus telling the story to his disciples giving a lesson in the Master/Slave relationship. There is no other point to the parable.

          4. Jesus is heartless:
          “Cut him to pieces” (Luke 12),
          “Drown him with a millstone” (Matt 18:6),
          “Judge [them] unworthy…remove your blessings of PEACE” (Matt 10:13)
          “I have come to bring FIRE…What constraints! I am impatient to bring..DIVISION.” (Luke 12:49-51)
          “Hate your parents…hate your life”(Luke 14:26)

          5. The profound injunctions of Luke 19:27 are spectacularly heartless.
          Jesus said – “bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their KING and execute them in front of me”.
          This is not only a warning to follow orders, and a threat – but a promise that Jesus will return for a final judgement to do exactly what he says he will do.

          6. Where is the love in any of this? Fear and obedience is the consistent message of Jesus – not love. The delusion remains a delusion.

          The Emperor has no clothes.

          • A-max, You are not allowed to understand the parables Jesus used to teach His disciples because you do not believe that He is the Son of God, The Christ, The Messiah. All of your musings concerning them are null and void and will remain so unless and until you bow before the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of your idol worship (mainly yourself). It is you who stand naked and open to the One you so hate (Jesus Christ) and it is He who will judge your every thought, action and word according to His Word, the Bible. It doesn’t matter whether you like it or believe it. The One you hate is your Judge.

          • @Darrel,

            I don’t like Jesus at all.
            He’s not impressive when you look closely. He’s profoundly immoral.
            And for me to bow before him to accept his worldview as a way to understand him better is ridiculous.

            Suppose I said the same to you about Hitler?
            “You don’t really get Hitler, he had a lot to teach us. Try bowing before his spirit and you will understand him better.”

            Presto. That would make you a Nazi.
            Why would I want to be a Nazi?

            “…BRING TO ME THOSE ENEMIES OF MINE who would not have me as their King, and EXECUTE THEM in front of me.”
            – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

            The world has embraced a Nazi as its god.

          • The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. i Corinthians 2:14

          • Yes Mary, spoken like a true Muslim. Or Hindu. Or Jewish person. Or Christian..or…..

    • Corinthians 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

  2. I am curious. Why have Christians not addressed to homosexuals the concept of sanctification and the life change that occurs with being a Christian? That seems to be the area of the Christian life that is severely undermined in this discussion of Christian homosexuals.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        Max, considering Sara uses an epithet to refer to LGBT Americans, I thnk we can figure out what Sara means, it’s very similar to the filth Wisecarver posted.

    • I believe that they have done so (although one has to be careful about making blanket statements). But the last thing that gay activists want to hear is that word “sanctification.” They don’t even want you to publicly agree with the Bible that homosexual behavior is a sin.

      You’re supposed to pretend that God made them gay. You’re supposed to pretend that being gay and being Christian are compatible (no matter what 1 Cor. 6:9-11 says to the contrary). You’re not supposed to talk about “life change”, or change-related texts like 1 Cor. 10:13, etc.

      Apparently some “evangelical” publishers are starting to agree with the gay activists. That’s a shame, for I’ll miss purchasing their products. But money’s too tight to be subsidizing falsehoods.

  3. Jennifer Knapp is one brave woman.
    But there is no coherent way to properly follow “Christ’s message” and remain Gay.

    Jesus did not retract the death sentence from homosexuals. Though Christians deny it.

    YAHWEH says, “Kill” homosexuals. (leviticus 20:13)

    JESUS REINFORCES:
    “Jesus answered them, ‘I and my Father [Yahweh] are one.’ ” (John 10:30-33)
    “have you not the laws of Moses?” (JOHN 1:17),
    “Follow the Commandments…do not defraud” (Mark 10:19)
    Jesus specifically enjoins believers to the commands of Leviticus “do not defraud” (Leviticus 19:13) and THIS COMMAND is not found elsewhere in the Bible. Leviticus then, lives as Jesus’ command.

    This is the Word of the Lord.

    • Mostly correct. The Old Testament law given at Mt. Sinai required death for homosexual behavior, as it did for adultery, bestiality, and others. So the God of the Bible does require death for homosexuality…and actually all other sins.
      The misunderstanding that is occurring however is that the OT law wasn’t only moral/universal, but also civil and cultural. The Jews didn’t have a government to submit to, so God set up a theocracy.
      Once the Jews were under the rule of other countries, the civil/cultural laws became obsolete in a sense. Not obsolete in what God’s character was revealed to be, but obsolete in practice because the local government had their own rules and laws. Thus, Paul says to obey the law of the land – even if it’s an atrocious rule like Nero – in Romans 13. This is why I think it’s silly for Christians to argue for the death penalty just because it happened in the OT. If they argue for the death penalty on those grounds, it follows that they should also argue for all the other purification laws in Leviticus that were cultural…like stoning homosexuals, adulterers, and my favorite of all: placing your wife at the other end of the house and not having physical contact with her for a week during her menstruation.
      Jesus says he didn’t come to abolish the Law (OT), but to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). So you’re right in the sense that Jesus doesn’t retract the death sentence. In fact he broadens the net of death to include everyone (Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-34), as does Paul in Romans 3 and 6. However, both Jesus and Paul leave the death sentencing and lack thereof to the local government (which is why Jesus was so apathetic about politics even though his cronies consistently tried to get him to take over the government with power – ‘culture wars’ anyone?). The laws that Jesus was talking about fulfilling are the sacrificial requirements of the OT.

      The anomaly of the Christian worldview, however, is that the same God (Yahweh and Jesus) that delivered the punishment of death also offered to take that death penalty for His followers.

      Once again, not trying to be condescending, and I’m sorry if I have been. I just see no point in using half-truths and misunderstandings when talking about matters like this. It does no one good and ends up in more bigotry and hate in the end.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        Modern Biblical scholars have proven the Bible was intentionally mistranslated relatively recently in order to provide “Biblical cover” for then-rising levels of homophobia. For example, the word “homosexual” didn’t even exist until 1870. Many major Christian and Jewish denominations condemn misusing the hate-based mistranslations to attack their fellow Americans and are marrying same gender American couples now. About 400 years ago, a group of religious authorities (sanctioned by King James I of England), secretly manipulated the English version of the Bible to reflect their own heterosexual attitude; they opposed the King kissing other men in public. But in revised versions, religious authorities re-defined the Greek word “arsenokoites” of 1 Corinthians 6:9. The most accurate translation, abusers of themselves with mankind [KJV], was pretty vague. Nevertheless, they replaced this vague 5-worded text with the not so vague and purposely targeted 1-word text, “homosexual(s).” Either way you cut it, this text does not describe loving, committed same gender couples. This campaign gave those who were looking for a reason to justify their own homophobia a license to openly express their bigotry.

      • @JOHN

        You said, “it’s silly for Christians to argue for the death penalty just because it happened in the OT.”

        No it isn’t.

        1. This is GOD talking. Are God’s Laws not eternally perfect and good? If not, which other laws are useless now? Please list.

        2. JESUS publicly reinforced Yahweh (Mark 10:19) he did not reinforce Paul. Where is the evidence that Divinity reinforced Paul’s claims with equal weight?

        3. You said, “Jesus was so apathetic about politics” …What ?
        Not true! according to the Bible:
        – The earthly kingdom is ‘coming near’. (Matt. 3:2; Mark 1:14-15)
        – Jesus’ followers would rule with him from heaven over a Kingdom exerted over ALL the EARTH (John 14:3; Luke 19:17).
        A Roman in charge of appointing the Sanhedrin would hear this as treasonous.
        – Jesus was clear…“Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10).

        JESUS’ ENTOURAGE FIGHTS THE ROMANS
        Jesus told his men to prepare for battle; to get weapons (Luke 23:36-38).
        Jesus was hiding from the government when he was captured in a secret place. We know this because it took betrayal from Judas to reveal the hideout.
        Jesus had a weaponized entourage (carrying swords) and there was armed resistance (John 18:10) when the Romans arrived to capture him.
        Roman soldiers were injured. (Matthew 26:52)
        Jesus was executed by the Romans NOT for bringing ‘love and peace’ as Christians always say – but for calling for division and insurrection (Luke 12:49-51) in the name of a ‘kingdom’ on earth which he repeatedly claimed was imminent.

        JESUS WAS A THREAT TO ROME
        The Roman Empire – a dictatorship – could not put up with this.
        Jesus had been trying to unite the Jewish diaspora (Matthew 15:24) prepare the 12 Jewish tribes for this imminent Kingdom with its seat apparently in Jerusalem.
        Jesus’ physical attacked the moneychangers with a whip (John 2:15-16) because they supported the diaspora – providing a means for animals to be purchased for sacrifices on the Temple grounds enabled Jews to travel long distances on the Sabbath, hence the diaspora.

        To say Jesus was not interested in politics
        is like saying David Koresh
        was not interested in politics.
        Wrong.

        Theocracy IS politics.

        Nobody seems interested in the ‘heavenly’ kingdom.
        it is the intrusive one here on earth that seems focus the Christians!

        • The Jews were instructed to stone an adulteress. Jesus says of the women caught in adultery: you without sin cast the first stone. According to you Jesus went against His Father. Fail.

  4. If you claim to be a Christian, Paul makes it pretty clear in 1 Timothy 1:3-11 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-20 NLT. If not, you can believe whatever you want. Christians, lets not use Jesus as the spokesman to justify our sins. Also, there are a lot more sins on Paul’s list (short list for the purpose of example not a complete list of all sins) than just homosexuality. Let’s focus on the speck in our own eye as Jesus commanded!

    Thanks!

    • CarrotCakeMan

      It’s worse than that, Jason, anti-gays are knowingly giving Jesus the finger. Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

      • “Jesus affirmed a gay couple”? Oh, sheesh. Jason, this is why it’s necessary for Christians to spend more time publicly discussing homosexual issues even though there are many other sin issues.

        You see, nobody’s trying to sell people on the notion that Jesus affirmed adultery. The Scriptures are clear that He did not (not even with the woman taken in adultery).

        But the gay activists and recruiters ARE using arguments that can negatively influence younger folks who, because of life situations and temptations, may be vulnerable now. So it IS necessary for Christians to do more (not less) public speaking up on this topic.

        It’s not because of pride or “holier-than-thou”. When people like CCM start repeating the old gay line that the Roman Centurion was doing gay mess but Jesus affirmed it anyway, SOMEBODY needs to speak up and show that it’s a lie.

        Debunking that particular gay claim is as easy as posting a 2010 Denny Burk article.

        http://www.dennyburk.com/did-jesus-affirm-a-gay-couple/

        • I think many of them know that, but they count on people being scripturally ignorant enough to buy the claim if they repeat it often enough. They’re selling a product, not seeking biblical understanding.

        • “Gay recruiters?”

          I am wondering what thought processes you are going through to come up with that one. Do they have booths at student organization fairs or set up offices in areas likely to find people willing to “bat for the other team”? Please tell me how you think that works. I am dying to read that.

          You make it sound like changing one’s orientation is just a matter of making persuasive arguments. I don’t know about you, but no arguments, rational or otherwise, controls that for myself or anyone else I know. Doc, are you trying to tell us something about yourself?

          Btw why should I take Denny Burk seriously? From what I have seen of him, he is just a frothing at the mouth bigot who likes to say nonsense in public
          http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/people/denny-burk

  5. Yea, a person can have faith, love God and identify as gay. But it seems that in our hyper-sexed, accepting and tolerant culture, reinterpretations of tradition that characterize our times, that sexual orientation is the deciding factor. I see very naïve and underdeveloped theology interpreting the biblical passages that deal with God’s purposes in gender, effects of the fall, redemptive theology, our sin nature, etc., So what remains is this is how God made me (despite absolutely no biblical passages as such) in the face of biblical evidence that reveals that not every human inclination is right and good. Because this is who I am, then it is ok to live it out. That is an unbiblical default position when considering that God speaks into the human heart and actions throughout the Bible, indicating that he does have a will and purposes for us, even if that is hard to grasp at times. There is also much more science to be uncovered as it relates to the impetus for our actions. We may yet find genetics at play in a whole hosts of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors, but will that relive us of responsibility? Perhaps so and we will just redefine the moral boundaries in society, such that God’s word has no authority over science. Curious since for the Christian, scripture is authoritative and He is the author of science. So much more work to be done here to help Christians understand the issues.

    • @PHILIP,

      You said….”our hyper-sexed, accepting and tolerant culture… is the deciding factor.”

      If you think it is hyper-sexed now
      you should see what it was like in Bible days!

      “There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.” (Ezekiel 23:20)

      Now THAT is hyper-sex.

  6. After reading all the available comments, I’m under-impressed. Some commenters are clearly atheist, so there’s no point to this discussion until God changes their heart. It turns out that CarrotCakeMan is just a repeat of Matt Vine’s horrendous “theology.” Good attempt to negate Biblical, but failed terribly.
    The rejection of wisecarver’s advise as being “harsh” also misses the whole point of being in “fear” of God.
    I’m fully aware of 1 Cor. 13 love. Jesus is incredibly forgiving, but only on the condition that we repent. So, you want to be a Christian? Repent. Don’t want to repent – go for it, and see what happens. I warn everyone who disobeys God’s will to put off sin (as some of you once were), the judgment of God is as severe as His love. I might even pray you taste a little of it.
    You want harsh? How about Ananias and Saphirra? Harsh enough for you?
    Somebody please start preaching repentance.

    • Typical Fundie attitude. No sense in having a discussion with them because they only adhere to Biblical passages which allow for a “holier than thou” attitude towards others. Somehow they feel that God has invested them the power to speak for all of Christendom. They forgo anything resembling “love thy neighbor” or about the “plank in thine eye” in order to feel superior to others with grand egotistical pronouncements of piety.

      Some please start preaching about human dignity and love of mankind. Something which doesn’t make Christians sound like a bunch of self-important whiny bigots and hypocrites.

      See how that works Corey?

      There is nothing resembling morality in the way Christians treat gays or any other group besides their own. It is merely prejudice given a social sanction and gloss. Is it moral to treat others badly? To deny them basic human dignity? Is that what Christianity means to you?

    • @Corey Fleig,
      Dictatorial nonsense.

      Calmly the executioner obediently raises his sword.
      “Nay, it is only my duty to the Lord – I care not the measure of his crime.”

      But he was born without fingers, sir. As God made him. That is his crime?

      “Nay it is my duty to the Lord – off with his head”

    • You broke the cardinal rule Corey – you responded to the blog trolls. Now you’re in trouble and the comments will never end. And yes, your comment on preaching repentance is spot on.

      And now I will break the cardinal rule: Max – your biblical quotes (not just this one from Ezekiel, but most of your others are wrong!). People – go look them up and then you will be better enlightened regarding Max’s hateful motives.

      • Anyone who starts a comment off with “They are —-, so we don’t even have to discuss what they say” as Corey did and as you suggest is not interested in conversation. Just validation and kissing of one’s posterior.

        So what makes Max hateful and those here professing to be Christian not? I have seen nothing resembling Christian love from any poster here who claims to be a follower of Christ.

      • @PHILIP,

        By all means, bring on your accusations against me if they are legitimate.

        But how is it that I am wrong about EZEKIEL?
        It is right in there in your Bible:

        “There SHE LUSTED after her lovers, whose GENITALS were like those of donkeys and whose SEMINAL emission was like that of horses.” (Ezekiel 23:20)

        Some versions say SHE LUSTED FOR THEIR PENISES.

        It may be my favorite quote in the Bible. It not only makes for a good prayer – it answers a few, also.

  7. So is this just another book to explain her history, feelings and reasons for her actions? Was she pushed into this by some other group, or just her need to be heard and accepted? I still like her music and my views don’t change that at all. I don’t expect a certain brand or morality from imperfect people. We are all on that journey. This issue is important due to its effects in the church and world, but it need not trump all other issues nor become the defining characteristic of a person or their faith.

  8. God has made his stance on the immorality of homosexuality quite clear. While I will not say it is impossible to be a practicing homosexual and a Christian (i.e., saved), what IS impossible is to be a Christian, a practicing homosexual, and be consistent.

    • Because you speak for God! The great prophet exoticdoc2!!!
      You are the designated chooser as to who is Christian and who isn’t as invested upon you by all people professing to be followers of Christ!!!!

      There are over 500 sects of Christianity. Some of which do not find your statements true. Of course your reaction will be to deny they are really sects. Because fundies don’t recognize any beliefs but their own.

    • If the bible and Holy Spirit cannot convince a ‘Christian’ that their sinful deeds are wicked, they were probably never truly saved. We’re not talking about someone saying that she struggles with her sin. She is stating that God and the bible are wrong. Big difference.

    • @Frank,

      Why does God love salamanders more than he loves people?

      Did you know that salamanders legs and arms grow back if they are cut off?
      But this isn’t true for people. No matter how much people pray their arms and legs DO NOT grow back.

      Just tell my why God loves salamanders so much more than he loves people.
      Do Salamanders pray better? Is their faith stronger than human faith?

      Frank, Religion is nonsense.

  9. A-max, Whether you like Him, approve of Him, or hate Him (as you have stated), you WILL non-the-less bow before Him, the Lord Jesus Christ, and confess with your mouth (A-max) that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. The opportunity to do this voluntarily is open to you now. But on the last day of your existence, just before you are cast into the Lake of Fire where you will be tormented forever for rejecting the Son of God (the Lord Jesus Christ) your mouth will say the Jesus Christ is LORD. You will have no choice, but will be forced to do this no matter what objection you may raise. Jesus Christ is Lord and He is the only Savior provided by His Father to this lost world. Reject Him as you may, it will not change that fact that He is Lord and reigns over you, A-max. If you wish to be one of His enemies slain before Him, that is the fate that awaits you and you will die the second death, never being annihilated, bur always in a state of dying, for all eternity and all because you have rejected the salvation offered by the Lord Jesus Christ that He purchased on the Cross as He died and was raised to life again the third day. Continue to hate and curse Him and this will be your eternal fate with no appeal or parole. Lay down your hatred of Him, renounce your sins and the fleeting pleasure you may enjoy for a moment, call upon Him to forgive you and to save you and He will do just that.

    • Pascal’s wager? Really? [facepalm]

      Ooooh the non-believers are going to HELLLL!!! Oh no!! What are we going to do? We could try pretending to believe. God loves people who do things out of fear, are insincere and self-interested!

      Is your God so venal and petty that he tortures people for all eternity if they don’t sing his praises? I guess so. Kind of a whiny type, God. Not at all the kind of behavior one expects from being all knowing, all powerful and loving.

      Darrel, the only difference between your post and some gypsy curse or witchdoctor hex is the lack of colorful costume. Might as well be making a voodoo doll of Max to stick pins in or giving him “the evil eye”.

        • Spoken like every abusive family member to another.

          “I am beating you to death for your own good.”

          When a punishment far outweighs the transgression, it ceases to have value and becomes merely malice. Your God is a malicious, petty, mendacious type who seems to be more satisfied with phony self-interested praise rather than sincere devotion. This is not worthy of praise or respect.

          I know such pronouncements are useful in scaring superstitious uneducated people into belief, but I am not an illiterate subsistence farmer in the developing world. You need more sane persuasive methods and arguments to make it worthwhile to take it seriously.

          If heaven is full of petty fearmongering people like Darrel, it is no paradise. He seems like such an unpleasant person to be around. Spending an eternity with those type of people around would be a better description of hell.

    • @DARREL

      You said, “…you WILL non-the-less bow before Him…”

      Oh, no I won’t. Your Jesus Hitler has no place in my future.
      It is exactly that sort of reflexive fascism that opened my eyes
      to the vanity at the core of Jesus and led me away from my Christian upbringing.

      Furthermore, it makes me angry such obvious piffle
      can be uttered by a grown-up. It deserves immediate mockery.
      The Christian Marinade turns all critical faculties to vinegar.

      You said, “You will have no choice”

      What happened to free will? Clearly that is thrown out?
      Don’t bother – there is no coherence to the story you are telling.

      Your Jesus Blood Sacrifice delusion is not only fictional, it promotes the destruction of one’s own thinking capacity.
      Shame on those who indoctrinate this abjection into the minds of young people.

  10. @ A-max and Larry,
    Despite all your cursing and hatred toward the God that created you, He still offers His hand of mercy and salvation to you even now as your curse Him. But you, A-max and you, Larry would rather stiffen you necks further, rebel even more, and declare your independence from Him forever. Because you continue to reject His Son, the Savior of the world, and would rather worship yourselves instead of Him. Why wouldn’t God cast you into eternal fire and damnation? You claim to not believe in God, but we all know that is not true. You believe He exists, but reject the claims He rightly places on your life. You know even now that He knows all that goes on in your heart, your thoughts, your words, your hatred for Him. But His hand is stretched out still. If you continue to spurn Him why should He not cast you into hell? You hate Him and He still offers salvation, and you reject Him still, you hate Him still. The demons in hell have enough sense to believe that God is and they tremble at the thought of their eternal fate. But you, A-max and Larry, don’t have enough sense to fear Him, the One that can not only kill physically, but also cast your souls into hell forever. Yet you try to blame your eternal fate in hell on the God that offers salvation to you now and you still reject Him. Even an earthly judge would sentence you to hell if it were in his power. You claim intelligence, but show foolishness—the fool has said in his heart, NO God. As smart as you consider your self to be God rightly calls you a fool. So what’s it going to be? Repent of reject? Eternal fire and damnation or eternal life and forgiveness?

    • @Darrel,
      If you are going to preach at LEAST DO ME THE SERVICE of preaching something that can make sense!

      DID GOD GO TO HELL FOR COMMITTING SUICIDE?
      Christians say: God became man knowing he had to commit suicide on a cross.

      EXPLAIN YOUR CLAIM…
      Yahweh became Jesus knowing he had to Save Mankind from Yahweh’s OWN laws. Yahweh had to become a ‘blood sacrifice’ to HIMSELF to save humanity from HIS own laws which demanded all of Humanity must go to Hell because of original sin.

      1. Who told Yahweh that Yahweh must get blood sacrifice?
      2. Why blood? Why not spirit?
      3. Why commit suicide? Why not just SAVE US?
      4. Why endorse suicide?
      5 What is it about suicide that God loves?
      6. When God committed Suicide why did he wait for so many centuries to do it?
      7. Why is suicide outlawed by Christians if it is what Jesus had to do?
      8. Why is suicide a morally okay for God but not others?
      9. If suicide is a good solution for Yahweh?
      10. Did God go to Hell for committing Suicide?

      And I’M GOING TO HELL BECAUSE I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS STORY?
      Is that right? Or will you join me in calling this nonsense?

      • If this were the Gospel, I wouldn’t believe it either. Someone has lied to you, and you’ve taken this and run with it (because you wanted to do so).

        • @Darrel,

          ?
          What part of this is incorrect:

          1. There is only one God and He is all-knowing.
          2. God put the tree where Adam and Eve would eat from it – That is original sin.
          3. Because of Original Sin mankind was cursed to Hell.
          4. So later, God became Jesus as a sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered.
          5. God knew He would be crucified and would have to spill his own blood in the process.
          6. God therefore commits suicide for humanity to save humanity from HIs Curse of Hell.

          Why didn’t god just lift the curse without the suicide?

      • So choose Hell then; honestly I won’t lose any sleep over it. You’ve heard the good news and rejected it that’s all we’re commanded to do.

  11. A-max,
    There is a vast difference between sacrifice and suicide. The Lord Jesus did not commit suicide, nor was such a thing required of Him by His Father. Rather, He laid down His life voluntarily, no man took it from Him, but Jesus willingly submitted to those that murdered Him in order to satisfy the wrath of His Father against sin. All sin will be punished, mine and yours and everyone’s. Jesus Christ gave Himself as the substitute for believers, He took the punishment of the sins of those that humble themselves before Him and believe on Him. Otherwise the payment for your sins will be justifiably on your head (and eternal soul). The love of God and the righteous justice of God are never at odds with each other. One does not out weigh the other, neither is one subordinate to the other. Both are righteous and pure. He will not wink at any sin, not mine, not yours, no one’s. His justice requires payment, and payment will be given, either by the sinner, or by the only Substitute (Jesus Christ) provided by the Father. It’s really quite simple, either you believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again for the forgiveness of your sins or you do not, in which case you will continue your rants of hate, false accusations (suicide? really?) and condemnation of the One who created you. If the latter be the case, then hell awaits your arrival where there is no pity, no appeal, no reprieve, and no escape, only an eternity of torments and all because you refused to humble your self before Him. I do not wish this off on anyone, I do pray that you will repent and believe the Gospel.

      • Not at all! In fact the crucifixion of His Son was considered a “done-deal” before He ever Created the world. He knew full well that Adam would sin just as he did in the Garden of Eden. He could have chosen not to create man at all or to not spare Noah and his family in the flood, and thereby rid the earth of sin altogether. But in order for His great Love to be known, He sent His Son to die in our stead, to satisfy His wrath against sin and to make a way for man to be justly forgiven without simply dismissing sin out of hand with no payment as His Justice required. His rightful demand that sin be paid for was satisfied by the death and resurrection of His Son.

        • But Jesus wasn’t really ‘a son’.
          Jesus was God himself, as you know.
          As Jesus said, “I and my father are one”

          So God knew all along that he would have to commit suicide to save mankind. I’m asking why the suicide?
          Why was that the only way God could do this?

    • @Darrel,

      What was Jesus’ sacrifice?
      According to the story you tell, he was only dead for a couple of days and he has been alive ever since. That is 2000 years of joyful, happy times in heaven.

      Where is the sacrifice?

  12. Jesus is referred to many times as “the only BEGOTTEN Son of God” meaning He was God born as a human, but retaining all the attributes of His Godhood. Jesus, as God took upon Himself human flesh once, for all time, never to do it again. The Father is God; Jesus Christ is God; the Holy Spirit is God. All three exist simultaneously, are three distinct persons, and are at the same time, One God. Many a man has wrestled with this, some to no avail, some to faith that it is enough to know that all three persons are God and yet God is One.

    To commit the act of suicide, one must be definition take his own life without outside help or influence of any kind; it is the last earthly act of a man. Bodily harm of some description must be performed upon one’s own body to effect death by suicide, the means to that end are immaterial. Sacrifice on the other hand is giving one’s self for the benefit of another. In the case of the Lord Jesus, He willingly laid down His life, He gave control of His life to murderous men with the express intent that His death on the cross was required to pay for the sins of those who would believe on Him. It would be most improper to say that “God committed suicide” for He did no harm to Himself It would be most proper to say that Jesus Christ gave himself a ransom for many by the willing sacrifice of Himself on the cross.

    • So Jesus willingly allowed himself to be murdered?
      How is that not the same thing as suicide?

      I don’t understand your claim the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit can be three different persons but be the same God – Why can’t they just be 3 different Gods?

  13. Suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness, no one benefits, loved ones are left with unanswered questions and the pain of loosing the one they loved. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was for the benefit of those who would believe upon Him. He, the sinless Son of God, freely gave Himself to those that hated Him in order that He might save those that believe on Him. Without His sacrifice for our sins no one would be forgiven. He was the only one worthy to procure this salvation because He was 1) the Son of God; 2) sinless in His life; 3) the chosen one of the Father to sacrifice Himself for us. Suicide is the last effort of a person to gain love, pity, respect, notice, or whatever motivates one to take his own life. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was motivated solely from love for another (many). If He had not gone to the cross (willingly) then all of humanity would justifiably be permanent residents of hell for the sins that all of us have done. But in spite of our rebellion, constant sin, hatred toward Him, and refusal to humble ourselves before Him, He still offers eternal life to those that repent of their sins and believe on Him.

    As for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three separate, distinct persons, but at the same time they are One God is admittedly difficult to understand. A less than adequate example may be seen in water. Whether liquid, ice, or vapor, it is always water. It’s a poor example because water can only be in one form or another at the same time. But God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (the Trinity) all are seen to be in action simultaneously in the saving of a soul. The Father chooses and draws a man to Himself, the Son provides the legal means for a man to be a justified & forgiven sinner and prays to the Father for the sinner to be saved, while the Holy Spirit is convicting a man of his sin and need of the Savior. Three actions by the three persons of the Trinity all acting in perfect harmony with each other, no arguments, no discussion, no dissension, only total and eternal unity. Just as I cannot explain the creation of the universe, I cannot explain the Trinity (to do so would be to explain God). But that does not deter nor hamper my belief that God is One and in three persons, just as creation is a fact in spite of the foolish rants of men to the contrary

    • @Darrel,

      You are being completely incoherent. Why did Jesus have to be murdered to be remembered?

      “The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus was for the benefit of those who would believe upon Him.”

      So Jesus/Yahweh arranged for his own murder
      (as you say) just so people would believe in him?

      I believe in thousands of people – AND THEIR IDEAS – who did not die of murder
      None of these people were murdered and yet they are well remember AND PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THEIR MESSAGES ANYWAY:

      Linus Pauling
      Louis Armstrong
      Einstein
      Gene Roddenberry
      Franklin Roosevelt
      Davey Jones of the Monkees….ETC, ETC…

      I can’t understand you at all.
      People do not need to BE MURDERED in order for others to believe in their ideas!

      • Hebrews 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    • @Darrel,

      The Trinity IS NONSENSE:

      1. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS DIFFERENT
      “whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come (Matthew 12).

      The holy spirit and the Son are not co-equal – they are different beings.

      2. “He said to them: You, though, who do you say I am? In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
      In response Jesus said to him: ‘Happy you are, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.” (Matthew 16)

      So God revealed it NOT Jesus, so they are two different THINGS.

      3. “He said to them: You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” (Matthew 20).

      So God and Jesus have separate possessions.

      4. “Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God” (Mark 10:18).

      So God is good and Jesus is not, so they are different people with DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS and different LEVELS of righteousness.

      5. “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:36).

      So God knows things that JESUS DOES NOT KNOW. So they have no ‘unity of Godhead’.

      6. “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in me” (John 14:1).
      THESE ARE CLEARLY Two different beings to put your faith in.

      7. “You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am” (John 14:28).

      JESUS IS CLEAR the two of them are not co-equal then.

      8. ” saying: Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42).

      So God and Jesus have TWO DIFFERENT WILLS. So there is no ‘unity of Godhead’.

      9. “Therefore they took the stone away. Now Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
      True, I knew that you always hear me; but on account of the crowd standing around I spoke, in order that they might believe that you sent me forth (John 11:41-42).

      So God SENT JESUS FORTH, and God himself remained entirely in heaven whilst Jesus was on the earth.

      10. “You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matthew 6:9).

      Jesus himself was ENTIRELY on earth and God was ENTIRELY in heaven when he said this!

      11. “46 About the 9th hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46).

      One cannot easily forsake ONESELF can one! The Father was God of the son. The son was not God of the father.

      As a final argument, if it is true that Jesus and God are the same person, then Jesus talked to himself in public, and prayed to himself in private and so was in fact a schizophrenic. This is plainly a false insult both to God and to his Son.

      12. “The one alone having immortality [aqanasian], dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one of men has seen, nor is able to see.” (1 Timothy 6:16).

      Literally aqanasian means ‘without death’. So God has not died and will never die. Whereas of course Jesus has died. Therefore Jesus is not God – QED.

      13. “So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: You are my son; I, today, I have become your father. Just as he says also in another place: You are a priest forever according to the manner of Melchizedek.
      In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.
      Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;
      and after he had been made perfect he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, because he has been specifically called by God a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:5-10)

      One CANNOT BE a priest of oneself. Jesus must be a different person to God in order that he can be God’s priest. Just as Melchizedek was a different person to God. God became Jesus’ father again by saving him out of death, by resurrecting him.

      14. “But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.” (1 Corinthians15:23).

      How do you hand over something to yourself?

      15. “I was cast on You from the womb, from My mother’s belly, You are My God (Psalm 22:10)

      David is speaking as Jesus here. Jesus does not say: I am my God. He says: You are my God.

      —–

      JESUS NEVER SPOKE OF A TRINITY.

      SO HERE ARE YOUR CHOICES:

      JESUS WAS GOD – Which means he committed suicide for humanity.

      OR JESUS WASN’T GOD – Which means Christianity is a blunder.

      OR JESUS AND YAHWEH ARE SEPARATE GODS – Which means Christianity is a blunder.

      The holy spirit is apparently nothing but an attenuating superstition.

  14. Since you freely quote Scripture (to your own demise) be reminded of these: “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation that light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.” John 3:18-20 You will wrestle with Word of God from now ’til the day you die in an unending, unsatisfied quest to prove the Bible wrong and A-max right so that you will excuse yourself from your responsibility to humble yourself before God (which responsibility you recognize, or there would be no fight inside of you to exonerate yourself before God without submitting to Him). You really do know the truth of what we’ve talked about, but choose rather to rebel against God, find fault with Him and His Word in an effort to abate the guilt you carry. When you get tired of fighting against Him, call to Him for mercy and forgiveness, I only hope that it will not be too late for you when you do. Jesus Christ died and rose again to save sinners, something that you have known for some time and have rejected in an effort to justify yourself your way, just like Cain did and all the others who refuse to bow before Him. I wish you the best in this life, because unless you repent of your wicked unbelief, the next life will literally be hell for you.

    • @Darrel,

      “unless you repent of your wicked unbelief”
      Well, what I am supposed to believe? I only have 3 options:

      JESUS IS YAHWEH –
      Yahweh became Jesus and knowingly committed suicide (arranged for his own crucifixion) to elaborately save us from Yahweh’s own curse of Original Sin.

      JESUS IS NOT YAHWEH –
      The New Testament would be reduced to an ancient artifact.
      Not the Word of God. Debunks Christianity.

      JESUS AND YAHWEH ARE SEPARATE GODS –
      Which debunks Christianity.

      They cannot all be true.
      Please tell me which one of these beliefs is NOT WICKED.

    • @Darrel,

      The false option is to accept that Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one TRINITY. This is impossible because the Bible says:

      GOD AND JESUS ARE DIFFERENT THINGS
      “He said to them: You, though, who do you say I am? In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
      In response Jesus said to him: ‘Happy you are, Simon, son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.” (Matthew 16)

      So God revealed it NOT Jesus, so they are two different THINGS.

      GOD AND JESUS HAVE SEPARATE CHARACTERISTICS AND LEVELS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
      “Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God” (Mark 10:18).
      So God is good and Jesus is not, so they are different people.

      I could go much further but “The Trinity” is debunked.
      If it is wicked to disbelieve in the Trinity, God should have made this easier.

  15. it makes no sense all this arguments one with another.we dont write gods rules.comandments. want to argue. go to god. he burned sodom and gomorrah for same sex practices not us he wrote bible book of romans curse coming upon hose having same sex sexual relations not us. these people are dishonoring god not us humans.they are fighting god not us.

  16. A-max,
    You go to great lengths to prove that God is a liar, that what He has stated in the Bible cannot be true, that you have it all figured out, that there is no God. The very words you use will be your judge on the last day, but you don’t care, because you have convinced yourself that your are right. Play your games, worship the god you have constructed, hate the God who created you, and in the end you will suffer eternally for these things.

    It’s funny that you should bring up suicide and falsely accuse the Lord Jesus of doing that, when it is you who are committing suicide at a slow, deliberate pace, with the end assured-eternal death-by refusing to humble yourself before the God who offers salvation to you. You are no atheist, just a rebellious man who refuses to turn from his sin-because you like your sin-unto the God who created you. You know His claims on you and still refuse Him. You try to use the Word of God to foster doubt in the minds of those who do love and obey Him. You direct people anywhere but to their Creator. All of this you do at the behest of you father, the devil, the one that you really bow before and serve. This will likely be my last word to you.

  17. As much as I enjoyed a lot of the commentary here, I’m surprised at how each of us (I’m sure I do it too) use language to tip our hand about our true position. I’m a Christian, but I still find a lot of information (and fun – I really had to look up Ezekiel 23:20) in Athiest Max’ comments. And sometime I’d be interested to know, Max, why you do know the Bible so well. But, at least Max makes his position clear from the start, right in his name. I find it hard to understand how fellow Christians are so dogmatic in their interpretations of Scripture. I mean, we argue that A-Max misunderstands Jesus in the book of Luke, because we need to look at context and setting (and faith) to understand. But when it comes to God’s will for someone else’s life, people seem so absolute. I know it goes on in many areas. I’ve seen snake handlers who take Mark seriously and people down on snake handlers because either the last chapter of Mark was added later, or the snake handlers misinterpreted the passage. I’ve been to “In Jesus’ Name Only” baptisms and heard those who decry that group, saying that Jesus said something different. Even the apostles bickered about interpreting Scripture – do yo have to get circumcised? Can you eat meat offered to idols? Can Gentiles be baptized (or, for that matter, can you even go into their homes)? All of these questions have places in the Bible you can cite and demand that the interpretation (and the translation you’re quoting from) are absolutely the right ones. I think it’s a very difficult subject. I think Jennifer is brave. I think we are going to have to keep having the conversation. And I think Mark Lowry has it right when he suggests, “How about if I love the sinner and hate my own sin?”

    • @Marsha,

      Why do I know the Bible so well?
      44 years as a Christian – (and teaching Sunday School for 3 years).

      Many people do not know the Bible
      They don’t know that God IS INCREDIBLY CLEAR
      about what he loves and hates:

      SIN
      is not something God hates. In fact God loves sin, loves to practice it and rewards it in humans a thousand fold.

      LOVE
      is not something God cares about.

      TRUTH
      As in ‘what we really can believe as knowledge’ has NO INTEREST to God.

      FAITH
      As in, the belief that something is true because it has been shown to be true repeatedly. GOD HAS NO INTEREST IN THIS.

      FEAR
      THIS is God’s most important requirement. Nothing else matters to God.

  18. Thomas McCall

    Wow, Ms. Knapp has certainly stirred the proverbial hornet’s nest!

    A baby boomer, I was a card carrying Unitarian Liberal Religious Youth for a good bit of my formative years, though I was introduced to some Christian ‘seeds’ via grandparents. I later dabbled in Eastern Religions and even the occult, and for me, fear of the evil supernatural led me to fear of the Lord, then to His forgiveness and regeneration. It was not an immediate transformation, as stubborn diamond must be polished with harder stuff.

    But anyway, my comments concerning this topic of living the Holy Christian life.

    Firstly, as born again Christians, having the flesh die daily, we’re to love everyone, especially our brothers and sisters in Christ, including those in the church and outside who are in sin, and love our enemies. This latter command separates the wheat from the chaff.

    Secondly, we are to examine ourselves first to see if we are in the faith. “Whatever is not of faith is sin.” Notice, if we take the speck out of our eye then we can help get that log out of theirs. It doesn’t have us pass a definitive judgement on a person, though their behavior might be up to scrutiny.

    Alright, everybody likes the lovey dovey side of Jesus, but I want to highlight verse 6 from this great definition from Paul’s letter to those naughty Corinthians:

    “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

    Some sins were clearly stated in Scripture as being an abomination, so much of this debate whether we can indulge in things that please the flesh has to do with the inerrant view of the Bible. (in its original autographs). When some folks asked Jesus why some people were robbed and murdered he added, and what about that tower that fell and killed people, he said, “Repent, or you too will perish!”

    Either we all pray that we are submitting to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, or we will, as Christians, be part of the great Apostasy that’s the precursor of the End of the Age.

    Hope all return to the fold in love.

    • We love them too much to leave them in their lost sinful state, therefore taking abuse from a culture that hates both Him and us.Some would call that love,you call it hate because you don’t want to be disliked. Not only does this make you a coward, but an enemy of God.

  19. Alas, the humans don’t get to decide whether or not homosexuality is sin. It was never left up to us.

    The practice is either an abomination in God’s sight…or it is not.

    What you or I or “society” or the whole world thinks is irrelevant. There is one who will judge, and there will be no chance to repent on that day.

    You’d better be right.

  20. Not that I equate “Religion” with faith in Jesus Christ, but this is a website for “Religion”, right? So why do atheists or Christ-haters come to this site, but to incite believers and inquisitive minds to argue. Atheist Max in particular has come here, it appears, to just argue with everyone. We get it, you hate Jesus. That’s between you and Him. I’ll pray for you. But just because you hate him, you’re taking it out on others who don’t.

    Really, if you’re a true atheist, what’s the need to argue? You’re arguing about someone you claim to not even believe in. There’s no discussion, then. You’re not interested in logic, or respect toward others, and you’re making assumptions about Jesus, the bible, believers, etc. And you’re an atheist, but know scripture so well? Truly, I didn’t think atheists cared.

    I respect you Atheist Max, and your position. I don’t agree with it, though, as I’m sure all believers in Christ don’t. So basically, you and believers in Christ are at a standstill. So walk away. This is a site for those who want to read about religion. I think you’ve made your point about where you stand. But you’re being as hateful as you claim believers are being.

    I’d love to share with why I love Jesus so much, and why I don’t see Him at all the way you describe Him. You’ve taken his words completely out of context, or just twisted them. In particular, the verse you quoted about the millstone hung around ones neck. In this Jesus was talking about letting the children come to him, and that we should come to Him as children (not childish, but trusting Him, as a child). THEN Jesus says if anyone causes a little one to stumble in their faith, it would be better for that person to have a millstone hung around their neck and them to be dropped in the depths of the sea ( Matthew 18:1-6). This shows how much Jesus loves children, and those who put their trust in Him. He loves you, too, and He wants all to be saved.

    But I get it, what I say will not matter to you. No need to argue with me. I just hope you’ll stop trying to tear down people because you don’t understand or agree with them (isn’t that basically you’re argument too?). And stop dismembering God’s Word. God loves you, I hope one day you see that.

    And believers, pray.

  21. Joseph Tully

    I have to wonder why everything everyone else believes is okay? WHY is everyone else, who do not claim to be a Christian or who flat out hates Christians, always accuse us of hating people,of being racist, of being bigots etc? We follow God’s Holy Law, God is, God was and God always will be!!! He is beyond any human comprehension. The so called wisdom of this world is absolutely foolishness compared to God’s Infinite Wisdom. How dare the atheists, the agnostics, the secularist, and whoever else mock my Amazing Loving God. Plain and Simple, Absolute Historical fact: Jesus Christ lived on this earth and died on the Cross, BUT He Rose Again. To all those who do not believe and choose to listen to the lies that this world fills your heads with here is the Absolute Truth; Jesus Christ gave His live for each and everyone of us. How is it that this Truth is so twisted, where people mock, and ridicule the Greatest Example for every person to follow. God is a God of Love. There is no person that lives or ever has lived that can Love more than Him.

    • They hate Christians because their deeds are evil… yet because they have a conscience they are bothered by their sin at the same time. Christians are a reminder to them what they truly already know, but are trying hard to deny.

  22. “…I am surprised at how each of us (I’m sure I do it too) use language to tip our hand about our true position” Yes you did, but why try to hide our “hand” if truth abide with us? You claim to be “Christian” and then laud the words and thoughts of a self-proclaimed heretic—Why? Then you “tip your own hand” by saying: “I think Jennifer is brave. I think we are going to have to keep having the conversation.” Said conversation being that one can be a practicing homosexual and Christian at the same time, which is in direct conflict and opposition to any Scripture that speaks to that end. There will be NO unrepentant homosexuals welcomed as Christians on this earth by the One (Jesus Christ) who died and rose again to deliver those that believe on Him from their sins, nor will such a person find the next life to be anything short of the Lake of Fire.

    A-max was bold in his statements (even though he was dead wrong), but you, Jennifer, have opted for the sneaky, back-door, subtle method to get the same message across. That being that the God of Scripture is hated by you because you try to “replace Him” with a god of your own making, one that allows you to retain the pleasures of your sins and maintain the illusion that all is well with your eternal soul and the only True God that created you (and no He did not create you to be homosexual, live in that sin and claim it is ok with Him). Whether you are gay or not is immaterial, you approve of such conduct and according to Rom. 1:18-32 your mind will eventually be totally debased, void of all reason, ability to think rightly, and given over to the sin you so dearly love. Your mind will be obsessed with only one thing: gratification of the desires of your wicked flesh. After a while your conscience will be so dulled as to be useless to make you see that wrong of your life. Is this what you want? Today, right now is the best time for you to repent and believe the Gospel, why would you follow A-max and commit eternal suicide by refusing the One who will forgive you?

  23. @Darrel,
    Please answer my question.
    WHICH of these statements it the one you claim is not the wicked one?

    1. JESUS IS YAHWEH
    2. JESUS IS NOT YAHWEH
    3. JESUS AND YAHWEH ARE SEPARATE GODS
    5. GOD AND THE GODHEAD (TRINITY) ARE THE SAME THING

    No matter which one you choose the Bible will condemn you to Hell.

  24. You are way off the mark. There is not much good in anyone of us. We all suck. Everyone is a hypocrite in one way or another. We all struggle with something. But how can you flat out Blaspheme God? How Dare You! Let me tell you something, Do not be deceived, God will not be Mocked.
    It blows my mind how all these Christian haters are the same people who preach tolerance, acceptance of everything and everyone but they do not apply it to Christians. These same people who want God out of every public square, who get up in arms about any mention of Jesus, are the same lying, phony hypocrites who then use the same name of Jesus as a curse word.
    Unfortunately
    You are missing out on the Most Incredible Peace, Joy, Love, Life, Fulfillment. Nothing, Absolutely Nothing can satisfy a broke down, worn out, selfish, wretched soul, BUT JESUS CHRIST.

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